TacTV Archives -
December 31st, 2018 by jhines

.308 Shoot off – Semi-Auto vs Bolt Action Rifles

We can compare bolt action rifle and semi-auto by specs, but it doesn’t tell the full story of which rifle to go with. Another approach is to setup a course of fire that simulates an environment where you would have to utilize the skills necessary for precision long range shooting. That is calculating windage, elevation, etc, with targets at various ranges and timed. (considered a better way to test)

So what does this have to do for the folks into hunting. This all depends on what you’re hunting and the prize that you’re going after. Maybe, its land management where you have to get rid of hogs or coyotes.

Walt Wilkenson of Gunsite, a former Special Ops marksman and Larry Vicker will be shooting with a .308 Surgeon and an SR-25 from Knights Armament in this shoot off. The .308 Surgeon rifle concept comes from customizing a Remington 700 action which makes the rifle very reliable and offers great performances.

After seeing this course of fire you can figure out which rifle you would need to get the job done. Ok, here’s the course of fire explanation.
The video below shows three different courses of fire, the third one is what you want to pay attention to as this is probably the best to test the competency between the bolt and semi-auto rifle. So the explanation of the course is off of the 3rd course of fire shown in the video. (16:28 time)

Walt explains the first course that places several large steel targets at closer range (200 to 300 yards).
Second course has smaller target setup at farther distance.
Two guys up front on a wedge, and three guys in the back in a wedge. This simulates that they know there’s a sniper in the area and they’ve gone prone and made themselves a much more difficult target to hit, a shoulders-and-head sized target.
Larry goes through the course of fire shooting both rifles while being timed.

-Bolt rifle time was at 29 seconds to complete.
-Semi-auto rifle time was at 27 seconds to complete.

As you can tell with a semi-auto its all about how quickly you can engage the next target if needed to. Where as if you’re going after that 20 pointer and out at a great distance, go with a good bolt rifle.

Video Transcription

Larry:TacTV fans, we’re back out here at Gunsight for a classic Small Arms dilemma. Bolt-action vs. Semi Automatic 308 shootoff. Hooking back up with my good buddy Walt Wilkinson, retired special-forces Sgt. major, who acts as an instructor here at gunsight. We’re gonna stretch both guns out, see how they shake out head-to-head. Definitely not gonna wanna miss this episode of TacTV.

Larry:The 308 Bolt gun I wanted to use this year on TacTV is actually a custom bolt-action rifle. One of the things I want to tap into that’s still a trend that’s ongoing, and a few years ago it’s really the way you more or less had to get a surgically accurate boltgun. You essentially took a Remington 700 action, trashed everything but the action and the bolt itself and possibly the trigger mechanism, and you sent it off to a gunsmith, and he put a high-speed barrel on it, bottom metal, custom stock, the whole nine yards, and essentially built it like a lot of guys do with a custom 1911. What’s happened is, that’s spawned the natural evolution of companies looking at ‘how can we upgrade the action, instead of taking a run-of-the-mill Remington 700 action and customize it, let’s take that concept and upgrade it.’ And the one that in my opinion defines that concept is Surgeon. They’ve taken the Remington 700 Action, taken it to a whole nother level. Extremely well-made, has a built-in Picatinny rail, EDM Raceways, they put a lot of features in it that kinda no matter how much money you spent on a Remington 700 action, you would not be able to put it into the gun. And it kinda becomes the benchmarks for a custom actions for people that have custom bolt-action rifles built. I contacted the Surgeon guys, and I kinda specced out a gun more or less that I saw on their website. This particular barrel has a Krieger barrel, one in ten twist Krieger barrel with a surefire flash suppressor up front that interfaces to a suppessor that I already have in my inventory, my buddy Randy Pennington at Mile High Shooting Accessories supplied the Nightforce 3 1/2-15 scope for a mount, my personal favorite, and a stock that really caught my eye when I was looking on the Surgeon website, the J-Allen Enterprises stock, and they even added a TacTV logo, for LAV.

Larry:This is a really slick gun, and I can tell you first-hand, if you’re looking for a custom bolt-action Sniper Rifle, Surgeon is gonna be a hard one to beat.

Larry:Alright, for the Semiautomatic 308 rifle, for this particular episode, I decided to go with the Knights Armament SR25 Carbine. It has a 16-inch barrel, and this particular variant has the dimples to lighten it up. Now I taught a battle rifles class in Florida last November, November 2012, and most of the class, including myself, was running the Knights Armament SR25 Carbines, and to be honest with you, I was extremely impressed at how well the gun shot, and how reliable they were. This is a pretty impressive gun, and Knights has spent a lot of time debugging this thing and getting it up to speed.

Larry:I know first-hand there’s guys in special operations are going to a smaller gun like this, verses a full-size M110 or SR25. That allows them to maneuver the gun in confined spaces, or if they have to do CQB, it gives them the ability to do it. Now, I would want a scope like the Schmidt and Bender 1-4, something allows me to get down closer to one power and as a red-dot sight, but I wanted to try out one of the new Kahles scopes. This is a Kahles 3-12. Kahles was a player to some degree years ago in the Sniper Rifle optic market, and for a number of years they got out of it. Just recently, they’ve reintroduced some optics to get back in the game. I wanted to try one out, they’ve always been world-famous for excellent optics, we’ll see how this shakes out when I shoot it in terms of actual use. Now, of course, I’ve mounted it to the rifle with the spur mount, my personal favorite, and I also have a set of the Knights Armament flip-up offset sights, so in case for whatever reason the optic was trashed and you couldn’t get it off, you could use the Iron Sights for close-range engagements.

Walt: Five rounds, one at a time, take your time, focus on the reticle.

Larry:Alright, going hot.


Walt: Don’t think about the next one, don’t think about the last one.

[More firing]

Walt: Last one. [Bang] Alright. Let’s go measure it. That’s a good group at 300. Let’s kinda look what we’ve got here… Center to center, three. Right on. One MOA group, three-hundred in this variable wind. Switch guns.

Larry:Alright, goin’ hot.


Walt: Unload and Clear.


Walt: Alright, as we were discussing, definitely a lot lower.


Walt: We had a lot more variable wind during this string than we did with the bolt gun. Without that one flier, that’s three and a quarter, so still, you know.

Larry:Not a bad group.

Walt: That’s doable.

Larry:Good, now we’re heading over to the four-hundred?

Walt: Right. We’ll start working four to eight.

Larry:Good, let’s do it.

Larry:Alright Walt, you got me out here on Long Range Ridge, take me through what’s up first.

Walt: Ok, this is firing point number one, Larry. We as a team will go through and mill these targets, come up with a range, dial that up on the scope, then engage them. Now our basic ranges run here from… I’m gonna say, 350 to 875.


Walt: Anywhere in-between those. Each one of these firing points up here has five targets. Ok


Walt: So we have to search ’em, talk, mill it, dial it, read the wind, and then hit.

Larry:Shoot it. Well we also have another name for this, right?

Walt: To the students, this turns into ‘Frustration Ridge’. Targets are a lot smaller than what they do before, and the wind going across from this hilltop across the valley to the other ridge line is sometimes–well, always, hard to read.

Larry:Well, I’m looking forward to it. Let’s do it.

Walt: Alright, let’s get in position.

Larry:Alright Walt.

Walt: Larry, let’s start searching for targets.

Larry:I see something right off the bat.

Walt: Ok, where at?

Larry:It appears to be a pepper-popper shape underneath a tree.

Walt: Alright I see what you’re talking about, right arond Reference Point 1. That’s twelve inches wide across the chest, what do you mil it at?

Larry:Like, a .75, .8.

Walt: That puts it right about at 450. Dial 3.2.

Larry:Alright, 3.2.

Walt: Tell me when you’re ready.

Larry:I am ready.

Walt: Favor left.


Walt: Down. Point-five left. Point five.


Walt: Whack.


Walt: Good hit.

Larry:Yes. Nice.

Walt: Okay, Larry. I’ve got a second target. That Juniper bush at the center of reference point one, look at ten O-clock, and you should catch one there.

Larry:Yeah I see it.

Walt: Alright. Larry. Dial 3.9.


Walt: Alright, tell me when you’re ready.

Larry:I’m ready.

Walt: Left, point-three.


Walt: Favor right. [Fire] …That particular target is hard to hit, because it’s the perfect color of the background.


Walt: Plus, for a spotter, if you don’t catch the trace, you’re not gonna see where the bullet hits in that vegitation.

Larry:Yep. You’re kinda screwed.

Walt: Alright, let’s scan for our next one.

Larry:I see one up at checkpoint 2

Walt: Alright. Larry, Dial 6.7

Larry:Got it. 6.7

Walt: Shooter ready…Left, .5


Walt: Hit!


Walt: Good shot, Larry.


Walt: Alright, Larry, got another target. The top of the dirt right at the edge of the woods, there’s a log. You see the target behind it?


Walt: Alright, let’s dial 8.2. 8.2. Alright, tell me when you’re ready.

Larry:I am ready.

Walt: Left. Point-six.



Walt: Mighta been. I lost the trace due to the muzle blast on the dirt. Sounded good though.

Larry:Sounded good and I didn’t see any kick-up!

Walt: Alright, looks good! Larry, I’ve got our last target.


Walt: Alright, look behind the stump off center-right.

Larry:Well, it’s very hard to make out. Appears to have a green head, and a brown body.

Walt: Alright, that’s it. Extrapolatin’. Larry, dial six-point-zee-ro.


Walt: Left. Point-five. [Fire]…No joy.


Walt: Left. Point-eight! [Fire] …Absolutely nothin’. Hard one to hit! No background, hard to see.

Larry:Yeah, looks like he lived to fight another day.

Walt: That completes all the targets here. Let’s move.

Larry:Cool. That’s a serious course of fire.

Larry:The first lineup here on long-range ridge was very challenging. I saw right off the bat what Walt was talking about, calling this Frustration Ridge. The targets were very difficult to see. With the naked eye, to be honest with you, they were almost impossible, you had to get down behind the glass and really search, and he had to guide me into a few where I wouldn’t have found them. Remember we’re shooting at Pepper Poppers down range. They’re like twelve inches wide, several hundred yards downrange. And if you miss it on that particular target, you have no real reading on where the shot’s going, unless your shot went low and kicked up dirt, in that case, you went over the shoulder or over top or around the side, and it basically went into the trees. We had no feedback on where the rounds were going. As a matter of fact, the last target was extremely hard to see, hiding behind a stump and, to be honest with you, I barely made it out. He had higher magnification with the spotting scope, and made all the difference in the world. Very, very challenging course of fire.

Larry:Walt, I’m gonna go way out on a limb here, say this is position 2.

Walt: You have learned something this morning, Larry. Ok, this is in fact position 2. Alright, varies a little bit: Targets are a little bit inside what we shot over on position 1, they stand out a little more, but still, you’re gonna have to work for ’em.

Larry:And I can tell, you know, the wind’s picked up.

Walt: Yes, we’ve got a [wind?] coming in, eight gusting to thirteen or so, though, so we’re gonna have to be quick on the wind call, and quick on the trigger.

Larry:Well I’ve got the bolt gun out here, we’re gonna fire it up, see how it rolls.

Walt: Well you’re gonna need it.

Larry:Alright, cool. Here we go.

Larry:Alright Walt!

Walt: Ok, let’s start searching for targets!

Larry:Ok, right off the bat, there’s one down here on the low-right.

Walt: I’m on it, go ahead and mill it for me.

Larry:It looks like .9.

Walt: I can live with .9. Dial one-point-nine.


Walt: Alright. Shooter ready?


Walt: Favor left! [Bang] Whack. Good hit.

Larry:Thank you!

Walt: Okay, you had a second target.

Larry:Yeah, base of the tree.

Walt: Ok, to the left of reference point one, right there, ok. Dial 2.8 for me.


Walt: Shooter ready. Left. Point-four.

[Bang, thwip]

Walt: Down, point-five. Favor left.

[Bang, Twang]

Walt: Good job. That looks done.

Larry:So obviously the first went right over.

Walt: Yep. Over the shoulder.

Larry:Got it.

Walt: Alright, Larry. Got another target.


Walt: Go to a reference point one.


Walt: From the top of that tree, come up two and a half mils.

Larry:Got it.

Walt: Got it right there?

Larry:Big time.

Walt: Alright. Dial five-point-four.

Larry:Got it. 5.4.

Walt: Shooter ready?


Walt: Left point-six.

[Bang, Thoom!]

Walt: Left, point-two.



Walt: Good hit. Alright, Larry, got another target.


Walt: 14 mils left. See him on the left-hand side of the juniper?

Larry:Yep. Yeah, stripe? Diagonal stripe?

Walt: Yeeep. Good. You’re on him. Dial six-point-eight for me.

Larry:Got it. Six-eight.

Walt: Left, one mil. [Bang] Oh, baby. Left. Point five. [Bang] Oh, come on, wind. We’re gettin’ killed. Left, point-eight. [Bang…twang!] Finally.

Larry:Money shot! Alright, hey, uh, Walt, I think I got the last one.

Walt: Alright, where at?

Larry:Ok, down from the last engaged target, go left twelve mils.

Walt: Alright, I’m on it. Alright. Dial five-point-eight.

Larry:Ok, five-eight.

Walt: Five eight. Shooter ready?


Walt: Left. Point-seven. [Bang]… We’ll adjust as-is. Left, point-four. [Bang] Left, one mil. [Bang] …Klang.

Larry:Got it.

Walt: That’s all five. We’ve got ’em all.

Larry:Second course of fire we hit after lunch, wind had picked up. Now, one thing that was in our favor was the targets were much easier to see. What did work against us though, was shooting across this ravine, and the winds got really squirrley, especially the further out we got. The Scalpel handled pretty well, it was an extremely accurate gun, but it was a very challenging course of fire, and it was because of the atmospherics.

Larry:Alright Walt, before the end of the day, we’ve got a third position, correct?

Walt: Correct. What I’ve done here Larry at position three is set up two courses of fire. The first course of fire: Larger targets, slightly closer ranges, which should lend itself to the semi doing better. The second course of fire: LaRue much smaller, and at a greater distance, which should give the advantage to the bolt gun. Now what I’ve got set up, basic same configuration for both runs: Two guys up front on a wedge, and three guys back in the back in a wedge.

Larry:And the theory I guess with the LaRues is, they know there’s a sniper in the area and they’ve gone underground and I guess– they’ve made themselves a much more difficult target to hit.

Walt: Right. So what you’ve got is just kind of a shoulders-and-head sized target, which is what you would have if the guy was in the prone. Let’s knock it out.

Larry:Let’s do it.

Dave: Sniper ready. Stand by… [Beep]

Walt: Give it more wind. Less wind. Perfect wind, do it again. More wind. Ooh, that’s it good shooting.

Larry:That last one got away, was it wind that got me?

Walt: You were right ‘n right. You got the rest of ’em really good.

Larry:So what was the final time, Dave?

Dave: That run was just over twenty-seven seconds.

Dave: Sniper ready. Stand by. [Beep]

Walt: Hit. Hit. Hit. Going to right. Hit. Far one on the left. Hit.

Larry:That’s why it’s called the Scalpel!
[Walt laughs]

Walt: Good shootin’.

Dave: Walt, that one was just over twenty-nine seconds.

Walt: Twenty-nine seconds. Good time. Can’t beat that with a stick.

Walt’s master plan worked! Semi-auto Vs. bolt gun.

Larry:Alright Walt, you’ve been around the block, give me your thoughts right off the top of your head, 308 bolt gun Vs. semi-auto.

Walt: Bolt gun single-purpose. That’s it. When you have to have a great degree of accuracy. Other than that, that’s all it can really do. Semi, it’s a multi-mission gun. If you have to carry it as part of a team, or you need to put it into a designated marksman role, you have the ability to do both.

Larry:That’s why you see so much in the military, particularly in 308 when they have the option available, they’re going more in that direction, and they’re getting more and more away from 308 bolt guns.

Walt: If you have multiple targets, and you’re trying to run the action as quickly as possible, with a 308 you’re going to be able to manage the recoil, and get on the second target quickly.

Larry:Now here’s the other issue: The very best semi-autos will generally shoot minute of angle, that’s kind of the gold standard for semi-auto 308s. A run-of-the-mill 308 bolt gun will shoot a Minute-of-angle. And many, like this surgeon, will shoot substantially better.

Walt: Exactly.

Larry:So if accuracy is a premium, that definitely kinda tilts the scale to the bolt gun.

Walt: Exactly.

Larry:But, if you’re willing to give up a little bit of accuracy, and you need follow-on shots, you know, then that’s where the gas gun comes up.

Walt: Right. It’d be a viable member of a team in a firefight. This is not all that great when you’ve got a lot of targets close-range and you need no accuracy, what you need is large magazine capacity. That is what an individual needs to have.

Larry:So as it boils down, no surprise here, if extreme accuracy is your requirement, you need to be looking at a bolt gun. If follow-on shots with a reasonable degree of accuracy is what you need, semi-auto all the way. Take it from the LAV and the Waltster, baby.


Sources: Vickers Tactical, TacTV

Posted in Long Guns Tagged with: , , , , , ,

December 28th, 2018 by jhines

Precision Long Range Shooting, Try it Suppressed

This was a while back but a really good segment on precision long range shooting conducted by Larry Vicker and spotted by Walt Wilkinson of Gunsite. They were pushing the range limits on the Lapua 338. Though the video states debunking myths on long range shooting, the results is what is significant.

Larry was using a 338 Lapua/250 grain bullet with Schmidt&Bender scope, Atlas bipod and with a Armament suppressor. A fact that most long range shooter understands when shooting out to beyond 1000 yards the bullet starts to drop like a rainbow. Thats due to (getting a little technical here) the environmental factors of temperature and barometric pressure. So to overcome this is to run the math in a ballistic app. That’s the reason why they say a grouping at 1500 yards should be at fifteen inches group, where at closer range your groupings could be at 5 inches.

The un-suppressed rifle starts out at 300 yards for zeroing and pushes out to 2500 and outer space to see where the rounds go. For the 338 Lapua with the 20 inch barrel the drop off point was at 1470 yard. The bullet is tumbling, yawing, spinning out of control and would land in a group size of a Volkswagen.

From here its back to the 1313 yards where the gun was in the zone with a suppressor attached. Suppressed Lapua had no problem hitting steel targets at 1313 and 1470 yards, but lost it at 1583 yards.

Neat Discoveries
Un-Suppressed with a 338 Lapua

  • 1313 yards on target
  • 1470 yards falling off into no where land

Suppressed with a 33 Lapua (Suppressor has given it more velocity)

  • no problem hitting steel at 1313 yards
  • hit target at 1470 yard
  • Went into outer space at 1583 yards

You can skip to 8:50 (1082 yd), 9:26 (1313 yd) and 13:35 (suppressed 1470yd) to view the shots.

Video Transcription

[Larry] Long-range shooting is the Firearms equivalent to the fishing story. Every time you talk to somebody, the distances got farther and the shot got more difficult. I got a little taste of that myself last year, on the mile shot episode. We’re gonna revisit that topic out here at Gunsite with my good buddy Walt Wilkinson. He’s one of the Gunsite staff instructors, retired sgt major from US Army Special Forces, 30 years in service, and he’s a world-champion fifty caliber shooter. We’re gonna visit some of the excellent long-range facilities that Gunsite has to offer. I’ll be shooting a very special 338 Lapua, and Walt will be shooting his World Champion 50 Caliber BMG Boltgun. This is a real special episode, and if you’re into long-distance shooting, make sure you stay tuned, because we’re gonna debunk a lot of myths along the way.

Ok, the gun I’m using this year out at Gunsite in the season 2 long-distance episode is an Accuracy International AX 338 Lapua, provided to me by my good friend Randy Pennington at Mile High Shooting Accessories in Denver Colorado. Randy reached out after he saw what we did last year on the show, offered up a gun for Season 2, and it turns out, he’s a Vietnam vet with a service-related disability. Really good guy. And what I consider the best one-stop shop for high-end sniper rifles and accessories in the country. This entire gun was decked out by Mile High shooting accessories. Let me take you through it.

They are the exclusive distributor for Suppressed Armament Systems, which was the suppressor that came with the gun, has a 20-inch barreled AX, the base rifle 338 Lapua, a Schmidt and Bender scope which he supplies, I actually got this particular one in flat dark earth from Mark Cromwell at Schmidt & Bender USA, this is one of the exact scopes that they’re sending to SOCOM for the PSR program. The 5-25 PM2 is the gold standard for long-distance shooting now, and this is the scope that was actually chosen by the shooters of SOCOM before the rifle was chosen. That’s how good of a piece of kit this is.

The Spur mount was supplied by Mile High, they’re one of the spur distributors of the States. Excellent mount, has a leveling bubble in the bottom, clamps on very solidly, unlike the gun we had last year.

[Flashback cameraguy] Woah, we’re F***.
[Flashback person 2] What?
[Flashback Larry] The mount’s loose. F*** the scope is F***in loose again.

[Larry] Best mount I’m aware of on the market today, bar none. Also, Atlas bipod has a throw-lever mount, and last but not least, folding stock, and it has Blue Force Gear sling on it.

Now it’s a tactical sling as you know, you can run the adjustment on it in and out as need be, or you can actually cuff up, pinch down on your arm, and then use this as a support as a standard service rifle sling. It’s one of the many factors in why that sling was adopted by the Marine Corps, as the recommended sling for the M16-M4 family.

Ok TacTV fans, I’m out here at Long Range Ridge with my good buddy Walt Wilkinson, Sargeant Major retired, we’ve known each other for a long time; Walt’s a staff instructor here at Gunsite, and one of the most dialed-in gun guys that I know; and a world champion 50-caliber thousand-yard shooter. He is obviously the guy that I want to tap into for long-range shooting. Now I’ve brought out a 338 AI gun, and you’ve got your Steyr here, correct?

[Walt] Yes I do, my HS50.

[Larry] I guess we’ll confirm zeroes and we’ll get out here and start shootin’ some targets at distance.

Walt, I know you’ve told me this before, but remind me, when did you get into long-range shooting?

[Walt] Back in Ohio in Highschool, alright, you know the groundhog thing, all over the place, me and my friends got into long-range groundhog shooting right there. We progressed through the 25016 up into our first precision guns once I got into the service and was able to make a little bit of money, with a Remington 40XB and 7mm Remington magnum.

[Larry] Now remember, you’re an old boy like me, you bought that at Advanced Shooting supplies in Columbus.

[Walt] That’s correct. Me and my buddy got consecutive serial numbers, single-shot 40XBs.

[Larry] Good deal. Now, we’ve talked about a variety of things off-camera here, when it comes to long-range shooting, everything kinda changes at a thousand, right?

[Walt] That is correct, once you get to that range, the bullet is dropping like a rainbow, so small problems in your calculations equal a lot, alright? So the environmental factors of temperature and barometric pressure really affect the bullet, and you’ve got to really either run the math, or have your dope book set up so that you know what the bullet’s gonna do at different temperatures. And then of course, the answer to the problem nowadays is the ballistic computer.

[Larry] Absolutely. Now, we know you’re a world champion 50 cal, what else do you shoot with?

[Walt] I compete with the 308, because I think that’s the best round really to train with, I’m not using one of the supercalibers there. The long-range matches, I use the 338 Lapua, going out to 2250 there, and then of course I shoot the practical 600-yard matches and the 1000-yard match with my Steyr HS50.

[Larry] And one of the refreshing things about some of the stuff we talked about, is you don’t buy into the perpetuated myth of the sub-MOA accuracy in terms of the ammo-shooter-gun combination.

[Walt] That’s one of the hard things that a lot of the students come out here, and they want every single group to be a half-inch or so. And that’s not gonna be the case, alright. Some people will claim that, you know, when they shoot, that one-time quarter-inch group, that now their rifle is a quarter MOA rifle, and they don’t. No, the stars just aligned, and you got the bullets to go into the same area in a tight group. A one-MOA gun, that’s what you’re looking for. And we always have to explain that to the students, whatever range we’re at. You know, at three hundrd, this is a perfect group, alright. And at four hundred, this is a perfect group. You’re doing fine, don’t get all frustrated. In most cases, with the environment, environmental changes and the ammunition and the rifle put together, a one MOA group is really what you should expect.

[Larry] So if you’re shooting to 1500, it’s a fifteen-inch group.

[Walt] It’s a fifteen-inch group. It’s an excellent group at that range, because the environment really starts to come into play there.

[Larry] Good deal. Well I can tell you, last season we had a blast with our mile shot. By your standards it was, you know, it was rather crude, per se. But this season, I want to tap into a real subject matter expert, and look into the science, and debunk some of the myths behind shooting at long range. You’ll be firing up your fifty, I’ll be firing up my 338, we’ll have a great ****in time.

[Walt] I think we will. And we certainly have the facilities here to do that.

[Larry] You’ve got that right.

We’re up here at Long-range ridge, my buddy Walt Wilkinson’s spotting for me, and we’re dialing in my AI AX 338 with Schmidt & Bender 5-25 on top of it. Walt helped me get zeroed in at a hundred, then we confirmed it at 300 on the woodfield range, and now we’re stretching it out to eight, nine-hundred, a thousand, different steel targets, and he’s calculating the come-ups, so when in theory we could be on the first shot or the second shot at most; and by-and-large, it’s been right on the money.

[Walt] Ok, I’m gonna give you your wind-holes in mils, alright, so figure out what they are.

[Larry] It looks like incriments of ten, and then five, but in the center crosshair, only out to ten on each side; north-south-east-west.

[Walt] Ok, so-

[Larry] So I can swag five.

[Walt] Two, five, seven, that kind of thing?

[Larry] Yeah.

[Walt] When you’re ready, let me know, it’s the small square one, third one from the right.

[Larry] I’m ready.

[Walt] Ok. Favor right.


[Walt] Looked like windage was good, just underneath.

[Larry] Yep.

[Walt] Ok, dial up point-five. So now we’ve come up point-five, six-point-two. That’s what we should be up right now, eight eighty-two. Lemmy know when you’re ready, shooter.

[Larry] I’m ready.

[Walt] Favor right. [Shot]…Clang.

[Larry] Yep.

[Walt] Can’t ask for more ‘n that.

[Larry] Nope.

[Walt] I think it hit. Just off the cross, upper-left-hand quadrant of it.

[Larry] Mkay.

[Walt] Alright, we’re gonna move to the thousand-eighty-two, two targets left.

[Larry] The one with the crosshair on it?

[Walt] Correct.

[Larry] I… am ready.

[Walt] Right edge.


[Walt] Right edge, you hit below the center just a little bit, though it looks pretty good. Tell me when you’re ready.

[Larry] Ready.

[Walt] Right edge.


[Walt] Clang. Trace said maybe just a little bit below center. Okay, moving. Thirteen-thirteen.

[Larry] That’s in that open field?

[Walt] Yeah, to the left, the two that are together, tall and short.

[Larry] I’m ready.

[Walt] Right edge.


[Walt] OH!

[Larry] He f***in skedaddled!

[Walt] Almost got ‘im dude! There was a jackrabbit behind the target I was tryin’ to get.

[Larry] Yeah! High left!

[Walt] Come down point-four, we should at least get in there.

[Larry] Alright.

[Walt] Tell me when you’re ready.

[Larry] I… am ready.

[Walt] Right. Point-five.


[Walt] There we go. OK, we know we can pound out to that. Now we’re gonna stretch.

[Larry] Alright.

Right now, the 338’s doing great, we’re gonna use a Blackhills 250-grain. Mile High shooting and accessories hooked me up with the gun. We’re at 1300 now, we’re trying to push farther, and by all accounts, with a twenty-inch barrel, we’re gonna start running into challenges, so we’ll see how it shakes.

[Walt] Let’s see what that little 20-inch barrel is capable of.

[Larry] Alright.

[Walt] It’s lightening up pretty good for us, not a problem, Mirage is not an issue.

[Larry] I’m ready.

[Walt] Right, point-three.


[Walt] YES. I love it when I can see the bullet.

[Larry] How’d that shake?

[Walt] It’d be a fifteen-inch group. Dial up point-four for me.

[Larry] Nineteen-eight.

[Walt] Nineteen-point-eight. Ok. Getting less wind up at altitude, most of it’s on the ground. So tell me when you’re ready.

[Larry] I am ready.

[Walt] Right edge.


[Walt] Just off the right edge. So we’ll make the adjustment, we don’t care what’s going on. Tell me when you’re ready.

[Larry] I am ready.

[Walt] Favor left. Favor left.


[Larry] Oh. Yeah, I saw that.

[Walt] Guess what.

[Larry] Yeah.

[Walt] We may have found that point in the world where that thing’s gonna start dropping off. We just hit one point too low. In the last one we were hitting dead on, ok.

[Larry] Yeah.

[Walt] Let’s try that again. Top, left-hand corner of the target.

[Larry] Got it.

[Walt] Watch your reticle.


[Larry] Yeah. You’re right.

[Walt] We have reached that point. So at this point here, we’ve now gone down below the speed of sound, and the crossing back through the sound barrier, the bullet ends up having issues, and will start tumbling, spinning, and yawing and everything else. So we have definitely reached that point. We didn’t reach it out at thirteen-thirteen, but now at 1470, we’re there.

[Larry] Well my world-class spotter-slash-ballastician Walt has figured it out– this gun is basically good to go out to 1313 on steel, but now we just tried just shy of 1500, and it’s a no-go. The group size down there is probably the size of a Volkswagon.

[Walt] It’s gettin’ big, yeah.

[Larry] And so what we’re gonna do now, we’re gonna back it back down to the zone where we know we can get good hits, we put the suppressor on it that Mile High shooting and accessories supplied with the gun, we’re gonna see what kinda hits we get with the same data we had unsuppressed.

[Walt] Sounds like a plan.

Larry, you ready?

[Larry] I’m ready.

[Walt] Wind has shift…ed.

[Larry] Yeah it has, I can tell.

[Walt] Left edge. [Bang] …Clang.

[Larry] WOOOOW.

[Walt] I’m gonna say that it hit…

[Larry] In the upper-left quadrant?

[Walt] Yep, right in there. That, that was impressive, you know, to go add that suppressor and then have no real point of impact shift at that range.

[Larry] At thirteen-hundred?

[Walt] Yeah.

[Larry] I’m very impressed.

[Walt] Yeah. You gonna try, go back out to 1470? Alright. Here we go. Dial nineteen-eight.

[Larry] Alright.

[Walt] Larry, you ready?

[Larry] Yeah I’m ready.

[Walt] Give me left edge. [Bang]

[Larry] Wow.

[Walt] It hit… center… low. So, with that in mind, larry, come up point three.

[Larry] ‘Kay.

[Walt] Let’s see what happens. Point-three would give us twenty point one, correct?

[Larry] 20.1

[Walt] 20.1 and that’s the suppressed one. Tell me when you’re ready.

[Larry] I’m ready.

[Walt] Alright, focus on the reticle, I can’t stress that enough. Left edge. [bang]

[Larry] I’ll be ****.

[Walt] I’m gonna say that hit center, low. That laid waste. The suppressor’s given it more velocity and we’re getting there.

[Larry] Well the guy got Randy Pennington, the guy that sent it to me, from Mile High, said that most people, once they start shooting these suppressed, they’re shooting suppressed all the time. I am genuinely impressed with that exact same hit with that exact same dope at 1313 with the suppressor on it. Basically it hit a man at 1300 meters with exactly the same dope, suppressor on and suppressor off. That’s very impressive.

Ok now we shot the gun 1470 with the suppressor on and we got hits that we previously did not get any hits on unsuppressed. Now we’re gonna see where it falls off the edge of the cliff, so to speak, and push it another hundred yards or so, to just shy of sixteen-hundred yards.

[Walt] Ok. 1583, alright, I want you to dial 21.7. 21.7. It works out to about a mil and a half for that next hundred yards.

[Larry] Got it.

[Walt] We’re getting out there, now. Focus on the reticle, tell me when you’re ready.

[Larry] I’m ready.

[Walt] Left, point-three.


[Larry] Oh. About where the crosshair was at.

[Walt] Just out there. Tell me when you’re ready.

[Larry] I am ready.

[Walt] Favor left.


[Larry] Nah.

[Walt] Unobserved.

[Larry] Yeah. Outer space.

[Walt] That’s not really good, because that was point-seven lower.

[Larry] Yeah.

[Walt] Than where we hit before. Larry give me another one.

[Larry] ‘Kay.

[Walt] We’ll make an adjustment off that. Tell me when you’re ready.

[Larry] Ready.

[Walt] Let me have the upper left-hand corner of the target.


[Larry] That’s it.

[Walt] Not only is it hard to spot out at that range, but yeah, we just had a half-mil shift between those two. Yeah. So.

[Larry] We were able to hold it together at fourteen-somethin’, but…

[Walt] So that is definitely– that is the threshhold of everything that– the suppressor gave us that extra one-hundred. Yeah. And when we added a hundred, we lost it.

[Larry] Makes sense.

Sources: Vickers Tactical, Gunsite, TacTV

Posted in Long Guns Tagged with: , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

January 9th, 2017 by jhines

[su_heading size=”30″]The Walk Back Challenge[/su_heading]

Anyone that follows Rob Leatham, who is known for his pistol shooting prowess knows about his “the Walk Back Challenge” drill.
Basically the drill starts at the 50 yard take a shot with your pistol, if you hit the full size steel target. Proceed to the 100 yard, you keep repeating this drill until you’ve reached a distance where you miss the target. Normally this is around the 200 to 250 yard range.

In this demonstration Larry Vicker using a Glock 20 which shoots a 10mm, the power is between a .357 and 41 Magnum. This pistol is ideal not only for home and self defense. But, it may be a perfect fit for hunters and back packers as well. Consider having 2 magazines which houses 15 rounds each, thats a total of 30 magnum power at your disposal. With the flatter trajectory of the 10mm rounds theres a good chance you can reach out and touch something if needed.

Check out the footage below and whats the farthest that you’ve shot with a pistol?

Source: Vickers Tactical, TacTV

Posted in Handguns Tagged with: , , , , ,